Our Conversation

I would like to start by asking you to tell us a bit about your background and how design started to become part of your life?

I was born in Mỹ Tho. I left Việt Nam with my family after finishing fifth grade. When I came to America, I realized it was a whole new world for me. The culture, the people, and especially the language, were so different. I did not speak a word of English. I struggled to learn English, even when I entered college many years later. As a result, I chose design to let my work speak for me.

I did not understand much about design. I thought I could just place text and image together to create a design, and yet, my ignorance for design opened up a new door for me. I was not afraid to put out anything. I didn’t know anything about design criticism, which gave me the confidence to enter the design world.

I was drawn into Macromedia Flash because I could combine motion, sound, image, and text. I spent a ridiculous amount of time learning and experimenting with Flash. I made a motion graphic piece in Flash using images of Việt Nam to accompany a song called “Bonjour Vietnam” performed by the Vietnamese-Belgian Singer Phạm Quỳnh Anh. The piece went viral for a period of time. My career took another turn when I switched from multimedia to web, but that was how I got started with design.

What motivated you to write a book on Vietnamese typography?

I wrote Vietnamese Typography as my final thesis for my MA in graphic design. The motivation came out of my frustration with the lack of Vietnamese diacritics in typography. Being a native Vietnamese reader, I know the crucial role of diacritics in shaping the reading experience. Without diacritics, words can have completely different meanings in Vietnamese.

When I began my MA program, the first class I took was advanced typography. In one of our projects, we were assigned to redesign a restaurant menu. When I presented to my professor the menus I had collected, my jaw dropped when he read out loud a Vietnamese noodle house named, “La Cây Chợ Lớn.” Because he read “Chợ Lớn” without diacritics, his words came out so wrong and so vulgar. When it came time for me to do my research for my final thesis, I knew I wanted to introduce proper Vietnamese diacritics to non-Vietnamese audiences, specifically to the type design community.

Do you have any typography or graphic design book that has been an inspiration for your work?

From theory to history and readability to legibility, I spent a tremendous amount of time reading books on typography including Robert Bringhurst’s The Elements of Typography, Karen Chang’s Designing Type, and Sofie Beier’s Reading Letters. You can see my collection of books on typography on my blog.

One of the things I admire in your book is your ability to go beyond the technical aspects of typography, introducing relevant information about the Vietnamese language in a concise and interesting way. Did you have any particular audience in mind when you were writing your book?

Thank you! I am glad that you’ve found the information interesting. As I began to do my research for the book, it became clear that none-Vietnamese type designers were my target audience. Designing for a language that they don’t know can be intimidating. Fortunately, the Vietnamese writing system is based on the Latin alphabet; therefore, it should not be too hard for them to pick up. I wanted to make the information as concise and as approachable as possible so they can feel confidence in designing Vietnamese diacritics. I wanted to give them the basic knowledge that we have when we first learn our Vietnamese alphabet, especially with the emphasis on modified letters and tone marks.

The Vietnamese language has been through radical transformations. The romanization of the Vietnamese writing system comes from the same roots of my mother tongue, Portuguese. When you were writing about the history of the Vietnamese language, did you discover any interesting things that you didn’t know before writing the book?

I must confess that I took our language for granted before writing this book; therefore, researching for the history chapter led me to fascinating discoveries. I knew that Alexandre de Rhodes was credited for the romanization of the Vietnamese writing system, but I didn’t realize the crucial role of Vietnamese scholars, such as Lương Văn Can, Nguyễn Quyền, Dương Bá Trạc, Nguyễn Văn Vĩnh, Trương Vĩnh Ký, Phạm Quỳnh, Nhất Linh, Khái Hưng, Hoàng Đạo, Thạch Lam, Tú Mỡ, Thế Lữ, and Xuân Diệu, whose contributions had made our modern writing system simple yet articulate. I had read Xuân Diệu’s poems over the years, but I had no idea that he played a role in advocating for Việt ngữ.

In your book you comment on possible challenges faced by type designers when considering diacritical marks, which the Vietnamese language is rich of. What do you think are the most common mistakes typographers make when designing for the Vietnamese language?

The most common mistake I have seen typographers make when designing for the Vietnamese language is that they don’t even realize the typefaces they set don’t support Vietnamese. When that happens, software programs or web browsers substitute letters with diacritics with a different font. As a result, you can see a strange mix of characters. When I was writing my book, I spotted many of these mistakes on Medium.com. I haven’t read much on Medium these days; therefore, I am not sure if that has been resolved. I even spotted printed banners at Eden Center, a Vietnamese-American strip mall in Virginia, that were set in scripted fonts, but letters with diacritics are set in a sans serif. They were jarring and yet the banners were printed and displayed on stores’ windows.

Since you wrote your first edition in 2015 have you seen more type designers concerned with the requirements needed for Vietnamese language?

After my book was published online in 2015, I have heard from many type designers around the world showing their interest in including Vietnamese diacritics. They have reached out to me to review their typefaces to make sure the diacritical marks they designed feel natural to Vietnamese readers. I have been glad to help in that capacity.

As a lecturer I often see my students struggling in designing in Vietnamese, some include diacritics marks by hand, but most of them will choose to design with English content instead, as there are more options of typeface available. How do you think we can get more type designers on our side, designing for the Vietnamese language?

Getting type designers on our side was the primary goal for my book. It was the reason I chose to put the entire book on the web for free so it can be accessed anywhere in the world. I have received messages from type designers from different countries thanking me for the resource to help them understand the Vietnamese writing system. Although we have a long way to go, I am pleased to see more and more typefaces released with Vietnamese support.

I understand your students’ struggles. I was in the same boat when I was doing my MA program. If they see typefaces that they want to use, they should contact the designers to see if they are willing to expand their typefaces to support Vietnamese. If the designers get enough demands for Vietnamese support, I am sure they will consider expanding their typefaces.

As for my personal use, I have made a commitment to license only typefaces with Vietnamese support.

Under the ‘type recommendation’ session of your book you present us with a good variety of typefaces designed for the Vietnamese language, which is a great resource for Vietnamese graphic designers. Nevertheless there is a lack of Vietnamese type designers on your list, why do you think it is so difficult to find more Vietnamese type designers?

When I did my research for my book, I only found one Vietnamese type designer and his name is Phạm Đam Ca. He provided insightful information for my book. Since then, I came across only a few more. I am sure there are more Vietnamese type designers I have not heard of. Because my book is published on the web, I can update the recommendation section with new typefaces from time to time. I would love to showcase works designed by Vietnamese designers in the near future. If you know any, please send them my way.

In your opinion, how can we get more Vietnamese people interested in typography?

Through education, like what you are doing with Type Ơi. We need to understand and appreciate the value of typography. We need to learn and to invest in new typefaces rather than to limit ourselves with a handful of fonts that come with our computer. Typography gives our design a voice if we use it effectively. Most of the time, text is all we have and using typography can make or break our design.

What is your perception of graphic design and typeface design in Vietnam?

Unfortunately, I don’t know much about graphic design and typeface design in Việt Nam since I have been living abroad for most of my life. I would love to learn more from you since you are living and working in Việt Nam.

What do you like to see more in terms of Vietnamese graphic design and type design in the future?

I would like to see bolder and stronger use of typography in Vietnamese graphic design. I would like to see more variety in typefaces and less script fonts for everything. I would like to see richer typefaces rather than using default system fonts for Vietnamese websites and online publications. Most importantly, I would love to see more Vietnamese designers entering the type design industry. Type design is the future in the Vietnamese design community.

Do you think living abroad has changed your perception of what typography is or can be?

Absolutely. It was my design education and working experience in the U.S. that gave me a different perspective on designing with type. When I first started in design, I didn’t think much about typography, partly because I only had a handful of fonts to work with for designing webpages, until I worked at Vassar College with a few talented designers who had mastered the use of typography. I learned so much from them and continued to hone it on my own until today.

Often designers will have a selection of typefaces they will use constantly, specially the ones used for body text, do you have a favorite typeface that you use in your projects from time to time?

As a book lover, I have a soft spot for serif text faces. Fern, designed by David Jonathan Ross, is one of my personal favorites for body text. Initially, Fern didn’t have Vietnamese diacritics; therefore, I reached out to David to see if he was willing to draw them. We came to a mutual agreement that I would advise him on Vietnamese diacritics and in return he would license me his typeface. It was a fruitful collaboration. I ended up using Fern for the body copy of Vietnamese Typography.

Finally, are there any other projects coming soon?

I don’t have any personal or passion projects at the moment, but you can follow my blog at visualgui.com to see what I am up to.

When I attended my friend Nate’s funeral, Mrs. Tra Hun thanked me for coming. She still recognized me even though I had not seen her in over a decade. I could tell she was devastated by her youngest son’s death. I could see the tears in her eyes. I could feel the pain in her heart.

I completely froze when I found out this morning that Mrs. Hun had just passed away on Monday—only three months after her son had gone. My heart ached when I learned that she had Covid. Her passing has reaffirmed that this deadly virus is far from over. We can’t let our guard down.

When my mother passed away from Covid, I was in town and wanted to come by their house to see Nate to rekindle our friendship, but I only drove by their house and left. Although I tested negative, I did not want to get them infected, especially Mrs. Hun and her husband. When I saw her daughter at Costco, I asked about the family and she told me that everyone was doing fine. I was relieved.

I knew Mrs. Hun when I started hanging out with her children. Their house was a block from my sister’s old house. Even though she barely spoke English, she made sure that I knew her rule when I came over and she only had one rule: “Sit down and pee.” Mrs. Hun kept her house spotless clean. Her hardwood floors were always shiny that every kid ever came to the house had slipped and fell.

Mrs. Hun worked hard everyday to raise her family. In addition to her full-time job at the greenhouse, she loved to grow vegetables, herbs, and melons in her backyard. She woke up early to water her plants before going to work and spent more time in her garden after work. She was a kind woman who would feed us whenever we stayed at her house. Her love extended beyond her own children. She treated us like her own kids. She always smiled and asked how my mom was doing. She let us hang out at her house through the night as long as we kept our noise to the minimum.

I miss the good old times hanging at their house, playing video games, and eating raw steak with white rice. I miss seeing her smile and hearing her yelling in Cambodian, which I did not understand. Mrs. Hun will always have a special place in my heart. May her body and soul rest in peace.

Xuân didn’t do too well on his ice skating test last week. He struggled with backward crossover and T-stop on his left foot. These two foundation skills are very important for him later on. Unfortunately, he didn’t want to practice. He passed Beta, but doesn’t want to take any more lessons. He wants to learn to play hockey like his brother Đán instead.

Before he could start hockey, I want him to take one more skating class. He will learn the mohawks and 3-turns in Gamma, which will help him with hockey. He agreed to take one more class. Next year, I will enroll him in the Future Caps Learn to Play program so that he can get all the gears and skates for free, which would cost $1,000.

Đán will finish up his Learn to Play Hockey 3 this Saturday. He seems to enjoy it. He will start level 4 next Monday. After that, we will be eligible to join a hockey team. I am not sure if I want to drop $1,600 for him to play on a team. I am sure my wife wouldn’t mind.

Đạo will finish up his Freestyle 1 in two weeks. He doesn’t seem to enjoy figure skates as much as he used to. He is not sure if he wants to take Freestyle 2, but he wants to give hockey a try. I enrolled him into Learn to Play Hockey level 3 and he will start next Monday at the same time as Đán. They just won’t be in the same class.

For me, I am still struggling with one-foot spin. Yesterday, I went to practice, but I could barely do the dance and jump sequences. The rink was a bit crowded. My mind was not in it because I didn’t sleep much the night before. I don’t think I will go to Freestyle 3.

My wife has purchased skiing season passes for Đạo, Đán, Xuân, and me. Đạo and Đán, in particular, are happy and looking forward to skiing. I am grateful, but also feeling guilty. With season passes, we will most likely spend our weekends skiing and less time tidying up the house. As much as I would love to go skiing with the kids, I dread not taking care of things around the house. I asked my wife to see if she could cancel the passes.

How should I begin this? I’m just so offended
How am I even mentioned by all these fuckin’ beginners?
I’m so appalled, I might buy the mall
Just to show niggas how much more I have in store
I’m fresher than you all, so I don’t have to pause
All of y’all can suck my balls through my drawers
Dark Knight feeling, die and be a hero
Or live long enough to see yourself become a villain
I went from the favorite to the most hated
But would you rather be underpaid or overrated?
Moral victories is for minor league coaches
And Ye already told you we major, you cockroaches
Show me where the boats is, Ferrari Testarossas
And Hammer went broke so you know I’m more focused
I lost thirty mil’, so I spent another thirty
’Cause unlike Hammer, thirty million can’t hurt me
Fuckin’ insane, the fuck am I saying?
Not only am I fly, I’m fuckin’ not playing
All these little bitches too big for they britches
Burning they little bridges, fuckin’ ridiculous

JAY-Z (an excerpt from “So Appalled”)

I have been re-listening to Kanye’s My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. “Monster” is so sick and energetic that it dominated the next track. What turned me off on “So Appalled” was Swizz Beatz’s hook, but then JAY-Z contributed such a hard verse on it that I like to quote it in full.

Last night, I just wanted to catch a glimpse of the Korean TV series that everyone is talking about and I couldn’t stop watching until two in the morning. I am hooked on the concept of adults playing the children games. If they win the money goes into the jackpot. If they lose, they get shot in the head. It is pretty wild what human beings would do for money out of desperation. I’ve always enjoyed the over-the-top violence in Korean’s films and this one is no exception.

Pierre-Simon Fournier, Manuel Typographique, 1764:

After the first necessities of life, nothing is more precious to us than books. THE ART OF TYPOGRAPHY, which produces them, provides essential services to society and secures incalculable benefits. It serves to instruct the citizenry, to extend the progress of the arts and sciences, to nourish and cultivate the mind, and to elevate the spirit: its task is to be the agent and broad interpreter of wisdom and truth; in a word, it is the portrayer of the mind. Thus one could rightly call it par excellence the art of all arts and the science of all sciences.

Saturday morning, I took Đán to ice hockey as our usual bonding time. Đán is an excellent skater. He has speed and perfected his hockey stop on both feet. His hockey skills, however, need more work. He couldn’t control the puck with his stick. He kept missing the goal. His coach loaned him a new stick for lefty, which seemed to help him. After class, his coach came to me and gave me the stick. He promised Đán that he would give him the stick if he finished level three. That was nice of him and Đán was happy about it.

We came back home and I took Đán, Xuân, and Vương to a Japanese ramen house for lunch. Đạo didn’t want to go. The night before, I promised Đán that I would take him out to one of his favorite restaurants if he read Let’s Read with Xuân. He was more than glad to do it. When I read this book with Đán when he was in kindergarten, he struggled quite a bit, but Xuân seemed to pick up the words quickly. In any rate, Đán and I ordered our favorite spicy miso ramen while Xuân and Vương ordered their favorite pork and chicken buns.

After lunch, we went back home and relaxed until 2 pm. Then I took Đạo, Đán, and Xuân to get their flu shots. Xuân volunteered to go first. This guy had no fear of the needle. He later described getting a flu shot was as painless as marrying his mom. His analogy was hilarious and I wish our marriage was that easy. Đán took the shot without a fuss. Đạo was a bit nervous, but I reassured him again that he wouldn’t even feel it if he would just relax. I told him to work with the needle instead of against it. He took my advice and we were done. He didn’t feel a thing. We were out of the pediatrician office in less than 15 minutes.

I took them to Veterans Memorial Park in Woodbridge to check out the skatepark, which has the tallest halfpipe I had seen yet. We had to take the stairs to go to the top of the pipe. If I were to drop in, I would either break every bone in my body or die. No one was dropping from this pipe; therefore, the kids used it as the slide instead and they loved the thrill. The skatepark also has a humongous bowl. Again, if I were to drop in, I would break my ass even at the shallow end.

Most of the skating activities took place in the area away from the bowl and the halfpipe. Đán rode the ramps with the skateboarders. He is a natural skater with confidence and a bit of fearlessness. Đạo and I hesitated a bit because of the crowd. There were quite a bit of skateboarders. Xuân rode around smaller ramps on his scooter. After spending nearly three hours at the skatepark, we headed to an ice cream parlor close by. The menu items were written in Spanish. All of the employees spoke primarily in Spanish. Although all three of my sons are enrolled in Spanish, only Đạo put his foreign language skills to use. Đán was shied and Xuân could only count from 1 to 29 in Spanish. I let Đạo order for us. After that, we went home and had dinner.

On Sunday, we got to sleep in a bit. Around 10 am, I took Đạo to the library to return some books and to pick up new ones. After reading a novel, I wanted to switch to nonfiction. I picked out two books. We went back home, tidied up the house a bit, and folded our clothes. We had a late lunch. Then I dragged my wife and all of our kids to Woodland Wonderland playground and Walker Mill skatepark in Maryland. I felt guilty for not spending too much time with Vương because he has not picked up skating yet. Since the playground and the skatepark were within walking distance, this place was perfect for us. My wife took Vương to the playground while the rest of us stayed at the skatepark. This skatepark was less scarier than the one in Woodbridge, but some skateboarders were a bit aggressive. Đán didn’t seem to mind. He went in and did his things. Đạo was a bit intimidated. Xuân tried out new ramps on his scooter. We were there for almost two hours and drove back home for dinner. That was pretty much how we spent our weekend. I was glad that the kids got to do outdoor activities rather than stayed home playing on their digital devices.

A week ago, I had a weird dream. In my dream, I was having an affair with someone I had never met, yet I knew everything about her. I knew it was wrong, but I couldn’t resist. I woke up and felt terrible. I was glad it was just a dream. Then I realized that Sally Rooney’s Conversations with Friends had gotten into my head. I was half way through the novel where Frances and Nick were having an affair. Nick was married to Melissa. Although the sex scenes in this book were not as descriptive as in her latest book, the story was emotional and engaging. Rooney is a master at storytelling. I am glad that I picked up this book after reading Normal People last year and Beautiful World, Where Are You a couple weeks ago. I have become a Sally Rooney fan.

I was late to the party, but I was filled with joy when I found out last night that The King Radio account on YouTube got shut down. Ngụy Vũ, the self-proclaimed the King Radio, is more like the Vietnamese Alex Jones who spread misinformation including wearing a mask can kill you.

Ngụy Vũ’s studio is located right inside Eden Center. It used to be a Kobe Phở restaurant. I knew then that this guy was a scam because his phở was plain. He just beefed up the Kobe steak. There were not many customers and the rent in Eden Center was not cheap. He shut down the restaurant and converted it into a radio station. His YouTube account was pulling in over 90K subscribers.

I tried to listen to one of his episodes, but I could not get past 10 minutes. He was rambling on and on about right-wing conspiracy theories. I did not understand how YouTube allowed his misinformation to spread freely and dangerously on its platform. It took John Oliver who pointed Ngụy Vũ out in his Last Week Tonight episode on digital misinformation for YouTube to take action.

When I found out last night through one of the Cub Scout parents, I checked YouTube immediately. Ngụy Vũ already set up a new account with less than 5K subscribers. Although John Oliver brought the attention to YouTube, users who reported his account got him banned. We need to stop him from poisoning our Vietnamese-American community. I reported his new account as well.

After I picked up Đạo, Đán, and Xuân from school yesterday, we headed straight to the skate park. We skated for 45 minutes and headed home. My wife made udon. Đạo, Xuân, and I ate quickly and headed to ice skating lessons. Xuân took his test. He didn’t do too well because he didn’t practice much. Except for one girl, all of his classmates struggled with backward crossovers and T-stops. I am not sure if I should sign him up for Gamma since he isn’t into it.

My wife took Đạo and Xuân home instead of waiting for me to take my lessons. When I came home, Xuân didn’t look too well. I took his temperature and it was around 102.2F. He fell asleep and I carried him to my bed. I checked his temperature again and it was still high. I was a bit worried even though he had his mask on the whole time he was taking his ice skating test.

I tried to go to sleep as well, but woke up after he made some noise. He opened his eyes and spoke a few words in Spanish. I didn’t know what he was saying, but I asked if he was feeling OK. He nodded and went back to sleep. Around midnight, he woke up again and said, “udon.” He must be hungry and wanted udon. I was getting a bit hungry as well because we didn’t have much udon for dinner. I took his temperature again and it hadn’t decreased. At this point I couldn’t go back to sleep.

Around 2 am, he sweated profusely. His hair and the pillow were all wet. His temperature went down to 101.6F. His immune system must have fought hard. I was a bit relieved but couldn’t go back to sleep until 3 something in the morning. I woke up around 6:30 am and checked his temperature again and it was down to 99.1F. I am happy about it, but I will be miserable all day due to lack of sleep. We’ll let him stay home today to keep an eye on him.

Having a fever is not uncommon, but I am a bit panicked because of Covid. I tend to worry too much because my mother-in-law is living with us. I do not want anything to happen to her even though she got her third booster shot.